Saturday, September 25, 2010

Godless

Last night I attended my first ever Atheist lecture at Metro State in downtown Denver. I was actually very excited to hear a “lead Atheist” express his beliefs, or as I would later learn, his lack of belief. It is very important to me to understand the points of view of others. If I cannot understand or at least make an attempt to grasp what they believe then I cannot “become all things to all men” and present the gospel in words that meet my audience where they are at. But I was sorely disappointed in the presentation and I think most intelligent Atheists would actually agree with me once I convey my reasons for that impression.

Let me begin with a brief introduction of the speaker. Dan Barker is the author of the book, Godless. Dan is an evangelical preacher turned Atheist and now makes it his mission to convert Christians from Christianity to Atheism. He has served as a pastor in several capacities in both the Friend’s and Assemblies of God denominations. He also writes music and has written several VBS and other children’s musicals under the pseudonym, Edwin Daniels. Dan has a degree in Religion with a minor in NT Greek from Azusa Pacific.

Dan began the lecture by describing the allure in Atheism being its abandon of hierarchical structure and contrasted it to the hierarchy presented in most religions. The religions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity were brought up at this point but that is the last heard of Islam and Judaism. The rest of the lecture focused only on Christianity and his opposition to those beliefs. In reference to his evangelical past, Dan conveyed his enjoyment of his Christian life as wonderful but that “being an Atheist is a lot more fun.” As Mr. Barker walked us through his Christian experience he continuously mocked the 2nd coming of Christ which left me with the impression that perhaps he had been caught up with some of the major Jesus Movements typical of the 60’s and 70’s, and dying out in the 80’s. The waning of that movement seemed to characterize the timing of the waning of Barker’s faith.

Dan invoked Scripture often but usually out of context and misquoted, ignoring other pivotal scriptures such as "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”(Mt 24:36) In an attempt to cast doubt on Jesus words “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened”(Mt 24:34) as a reference to a 2nd coming, Dan expressed legitimate frustration over every generations impression of living in the end times. However, I would like to interject that the word used for “fulfilled” here is not indicative of a completed action but a bringing into existence similar to that of setting a stage in preparation for a scene to play out. The implication of Jesus' words are then not of completion of events but of circumstances necessary to set a series of events in motion. Before that generation ceased, all events would be set in motion for the beginning of the scene titled “end times”.

Mr. Barker spoke of his intellectual awakening at the age of 30 as the beginning of his process to abandon his faith, giving scientific evidence of a full development of his frontal lobe as a support of the change. In other words, his faith was simple childishness and immaturity. I cannot disagree. I do in fact believe that his faith was childish and immature. But God is not unaware of such physiological developments in humans and in fact waited often to call His servants until they were at least 30 years of age. This pattern is repeated throughout Scripture. I happened to have experienced a similar awakening at the age of 30 but mine seemed to have the opposite effect. I felt the need to “work out my salvation” and intellectually understand why I believed certain truths. I realized at that point in time my extreme love for Theology which has resulted in my attending seminary and pursuing that passion. In articulating this intellectual awakening, Barker sounded angry at his blind faith and jaded by his ignorance. This is understandable. I felt the same way upon searching out my own faith. How could I believe such a thing without exploring it further? My exploration, however only served to strengthen my faith whereas his exploration seemed to have weakened his own faith. Oswald Chambers stated the following:

Initially we trust in our ignorance, calling it innocence, and next we trust our innocence, calling it purity. Then when we hear these strong statements from our Lord, we shrink back, saying, “But I never felt any of those awful things in my heart.” We resent what He reveals. Either Jesus Christ is the supreme authority on the human heart, or He is not worth paying any attention to. Am I prepared to trust the penetration of His Word into my heart, or would I prefer to trust my own “innocent ignorance”?

While many of us may come to the faith out of a level of ignorance or innocence, God never expects us to remain at the state. The growth of one’s faith is very similar to the growth of an infant. We start out ignorant, but at some point in time, we must accept accountability for our actions and beliefs and grow and mature. But this did not happen for Mr. Barker. Instead of the natural progression of growth, he chose to abhor his ignorance and reject the faith completely. Barker referred to his ministry as a “stupid, infantile game.” He now views his state of mind as “intellectually mature” and superior to that of Christians. Here we arrive at the root of humanism - it is the love of one’s own mind as the end-all of faith. I admit to feeling prey to this belief all too often. When we gain intellectual ground it is easy to feel pride in those advances and forget that our minds are a very real reflection of an intellectual God. Instead of turning that pride to a state of humility to an all-knowing Creator, we stop short of that maturity and begin to worship our own intellect. It is natural to feel pride over the intellect, it is part of the image of God but it cannot end there; intellect must credit its source.

None of these issues get at the source of my frustration with the presentation and so now I turn to address that issue. Barker’s platform hinges on the Christian faith. Instead of presenting a set of beliefs and evidences, which is what I came to hear, he presented Atheism as an alternative to Christianity. I find this is a slap in the face of any intellectual advancement as I wanted to know why Atheism stands apart, alone, and superior to Christianity. Barker’s presentation felt parasitic in nature to Christianity, as if his “ministry” could not exist without it. I believe this is a betrayal to Atheism in general and I find it hard to believe a proponent such as Richard Dawkins would align himself with such a leech. The entire aura of the evening felt ‘evangelical’ in nature right down to the manner in which the event was advertised. He played on his past as an evangelical preacher to merit an audience; every expression of his belief had to be a response, counter, or mockery of the Christian faith; and even his upcoming book project is a humanist rebuttal of Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life”.

My faith stands alone; I do not need Atheism to provide a platform for my faith and its expression. I believe this is the nature of truth. I also believe that this is the intent of Richard Dawkins work – that his Atheism can stand alone. So for this reason I cannot understand Mr. Dawkins support of Mr. Barker’s clear insubordination to the independence of Atheism. I found the entire evening fell far short of anything intellectual.
To make matters worse the Q&A portion revealed a multitude of inconsistencies with the lecture.

(1) Q: Why did you choose the truth of Atheism over the comfort of Christianity?
A: His response was in conflict to his opening statement that being an Atheist was simply much more fun than being a Christian. In his response he presented the decision as an absolute yes or no to Jesus (going back to the parasitic nature of his own version of Atheism – he needed Christ in order to even become an Atheist… how ironic.) To put it simply he stated that he “fell in love with his mind” and the Bible was anti-rational.

(2) Q: How do you respond to the accusation that you simply rush to the extremes of evangelical to atheist?
A: He is an evangelist no matter what he believes.

(3) Q: Should we all be conducting outreach – Atheistic Evangelism?
A: If it’s bad for us it’s bad for them (suggesting again that Atheism cannot stand alone and must feed and fuel itself off of Christian tactics.)

(4) Q: What is truth?
A: Truth is not a thing or morality; truth is the degree with which a statement corresponds to reality. The language of proposition must be supported by observation and evidence. Therefore Jesus cannot be truth (and yet another statement uses the foundation of Christianity for its existence).

(5) Q: Christian man came to the microphone at this point and apologized for the hatred Mr. Barker had experienced at the hand of the church and this was not indicative of the love of Jesus Christ.
A: Mr. Barker refused the apology and stated that the young man had no authority to speak for believers. (The demand for an apology carrying the weight of authority seems to be a direct contradiction to his support of the “freethinking” principle of no hierarchy. And yet here he demands the knee of some hierarchical structure to appease him. While I am on that note, how does one become a "lead Atheist" in a framework that recognizes no hierarchy?)

In summation, I felt cheated of the intellectual presentation I showed up to witness and felt more as if I had stumbled in on a locker-room pep talk for Atheists, lacking any substance but full of derision and fluff. My recommendation if you want to find material worthy of the title Atheist, is to look at Richard Dawkin’s work and not the intellectual freeloading of Dan Barker.

35 comments:

Kim said...

Good blog. Have you read "God is not Great" by Christopher Hutchins? I am currently working on it. The author speaks of the major faiths: Islam, Judaism and Christianity. For the part I have read to, he has discussed the beliefs and traditions, such as the aversion to swine in Islam and Judaism. Like many other people who believe something to the point of writing a book, he gets pretty preachy as to why religion is not right, even to the point of citing people who commit horrible deeds in the name of religion throughout history (including Christians). I think it will give you the insight you are looking for.
As for me, I let go of my faith after years of having a tenuous grasp over it. You can chalk it up to having too much information that I gained during college, or the fact that my mother decided to change churches as often as she changed her underwear. I was finally baptized Catholic at the age of 17 and chose it for all the wrong reasons. I was dating a Catholic and he had proposed marriage. It was very important to his mother that we were able to get married in the church. I have never agreed with the concept of religion, and after my husband became physically abusive (and his mother defended his actions citing scripture), decided Catholicism was not for me. I had not completely given up my faith in God at this point. Fast forward one year to the time I met Jon.
Jon told me he was Jewish and I thought it was very interesting. I studied it and tried to decide if I should convert. I dabbled for a while, trying to turn myself into a 'perfect Jewish wife'. Eventually, after much study, I realized it wasn't for me, but not for any particular reason, it just didn't fit right. Being raised Christian, I thought it important to have some religion, so I did more study. Finally, I came to a conclusion: religion does not fit me. So, I vacated the thought for a while and started college. This is where I was turned on to Ayn Rand.
After reading "The Virtue of Selfishness", I realized I had found someone who had been able to put my thoughts into words. Then, I read "Anthem" and "Atlas Shrugged". This is when I realized the belief in God is not essential for my existence. In fact, I believe that man has created God as a way to police himself in the absence of personal government (aka parental figures). As soon as I had this epiphany, I felt a weight lifted off of my shoulders. I no longer had to bend myself to believing something I never could. I felt responsible for my actions and in charge of my destiny. I could no longer curse someone who didn't exist, I could only curse myself. This put me in the position of power...power over myself and my actions without feeling that I needed someone else's guidance.

Deborah Downs said...

(Second half of Kim's response - wouldn't all fit in one comment so she emailed the rest.)

The allure of religion makes sense. It is much easier to believe there is more than this to life and that there is a reason for our existence. There is a reason, but it isn't necessarily an afterlife of paradise or clouds and harps. The community of religion also makes sense to me. Being able to gather with like minded people and understand the belief structure is pretty heady. I do miss some of the camaraderie, the coming together of a community in peace. However, I cannot bring myself to change my mind in order to be surrounded by people I don't agree with. This being said, I must say I do not agree with the lecturer, Dan, you speak of. He hasn't changed. Anyone who tries to convince people that God does not exist is only creating the existence of a deity by denying it (does that make sense?). I do not believe in the existence of a deity because it doesn't suit me. I have to control my life and cannot let an idea do that for me. However, I do not fault you for your belief. I do not believe you are wrong, as long as it works for you and you are not denying your own issues by diving into something you think everyone else wants you to believe. If it works for you and you feel your control is better exercised through your belief, then you ARE right...for you. Dan seems to have the same need as most Christians: to convince people he is right by converting them to his way of thinking. True Atheists do not try to convert; we are happy to teach, explain, or even learn from others, but we do not want to convince you from your own beliefs. After all, you are the one who has to live with you all the time.

Those who hide behind the mask of faith and commit atrocities against society (raping children, murdering infidels, or other horrific acts) are wrong, regardless of if they can live with themselves or not. This is how religion has been corrupted (or corrupted people). Anyone who believes they can do such horrible things, ask for forgiveness from their God, and reap no eternal punishment per their own belief structure, to me, that is hypocritical. Anything that promotes peace, love, understanding and tolerance, that is something I can get behind. Even Buddhism, which has no God, promotes these teachings. I think since we all have to live together on this gigantic rock, we all have to learn to get along. Perhaps that seems naïve and innocent, but I don't really see anything wrong with it. If there were a religion that promotes tolerance and understanding, you would find me at the pulpit!

Dan Barker said...

Debbie,

Thank you for coming to my talk Friday. It was nice to have you there.

You seem disappointed that I did not talk about what YOU wanted me to talk about. I was invited simply to tell my story. (Which is why I necessarily concentrated on Christianity.) The purpose of my talk was not to convince you to change your mind: it was to tell you what happened to me. If want something deeper, then you should come to one of my debates (or read my book), in which I do cover all of that ground, showing the moral and intellectual superiority of atheism over Christianity and other religions. In fact, I did briefly touch on those issues in my talk, but only in passing: the absence of evidence or good argument for a god, the lack of agreement among believers, the absence of a coherent definition of a god, the failure of Christian defenders to account for the problem of evil, the natural origin of religious belief, the unreliability of the bible (contradictions, anachronisms, moral inferiority, etc.), and the comparison of Christian and secular lives, the feeble ethical fruit of faith. There was no time, neither was I responsible in that talk for going into greater depth.

Neither did I say, as you suggest, that the reason I am an atheist is BECAUSE it is "more fun." I simply state the fact that it IS more fun, for what that is worth.

Neither did I say I reject all authority. I simply said that atheism, unlike most religions, is nonhierarchical. The Christian questioner who attempted to "apologize" for the actions of other Christians was assuming an authority he does not possess. I would accept an apology from those who insulted me, but not from him.

Your interpretation of Matthew 24:34 is wrong. "All these things" means "all these things." Jesus, if he existed, made a mistake.

I also pointed out in my talk that faith is not a virtue. To grow in faith is to grow in ignorance. You only invoke faith when you DON'T have knowledge, so it follows that the more you believe, the less you know. I was careful to explain that that is not satisfactory to me. If it is to you, then that shows simply that we are different in our priorities, not that you are superior in choosing faith over facts.

I love the fact that you are thinking about these things. THAT is what I was advocating: the freedom of thought and the respect for reason.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

Mr. Barker is right that he gives a more full account of the reasons for atheism in his book. However, his case is extremely weak. I'll just make a few points and give some reading references.

1. There a multiple good and sufficient arguments for a monotheistic good: cosmological, design, moral, ontological, and others. For starters, see the arguments in To Everyone a Reason,edited by Francis Beckwith, et al.

2. The concept of God in the Judeo-Christian tradition is coherent: there is one one all-powerful and all God being who created, sustains, and will judge the universe. See Charles Taliaferro's work on this in The Routledge Companion to the Philosophy of Religion. See also Ron Nash, The Concept of God.

3. The fruit of the Judeo-Christian worldview is far more impressive than that of atheism of any other religion. Atheist, at the hands of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot (trained by French atheists) and others, was responsible for the deaths of more than 100 million human beings in the 20th century. And it was no aberration. Marxist atheism claims there is no higher moral authority than humans; therefore, there are no objective human rights. Those in power determine morality. See The Black Book of Communism for the gruesome details.

On the other hand, those killed through the crusades, the witch trails, etc., are a very small number. There is no New Testament basis for killing witches, and the crusades were not as uniformly evil on behalf of the Christians as propaganda says. See Rodney Stark, God's Battalions. The Christians involvement is not without sin, but it was largely defensive against Islamic imperialism.

Christians have made terrible mistakes in history, but have largely repented of them: slavery, sexism, racism. Today the greatest philanthropic efforts are done in the name of Christianity, not atheism or Islam or any other religion. Moreover, Christianity is largely responsible for the development of modern science. See Alfred N. Whitehead, Science in the Modern World and the vast work of Stanly Jaki.

4. The natural explanation of religion only works of naturalism as a world view holds up. But it does not. It cannot explain consciousness, objective moral value, or the design and origin of the universe.

5. The idea that Jesus may not have existed is absurd and a desperate grasp to eliminate religion at all costs. To claim this, one has to discount every New Testament writer in addition to the testimony of Josephus, Suetonius, and other extra-biblical sources. The supposed parallels with pagan myths are not true parallels and these mystery religions came after Christianity, not before. See Ron Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks. No reputable NT scholar believes that Jesus did not exist, not even the highly liberal Jesus Seminar people.

6. Jesus's statements about the coming of the Kingdom of his Second Coming are of three types.

A. He speaks of the glory of the Kingdom revealed just before the Transfiguration, which does just that. See Matthew 17

B. He speaks of the fall of Jerusulem in 70 AD. Some or all of Matthew 24 probably fits into this category, although there are a number of schools of interpretation on this. Nevertheless, it is not at clear that Jesus "made a mistake."

C. Jesus, or other biblical writers, speaks of the Final Judgment at his literal Second Coming (See Matthew 25:31-46; Acts 1).

One could go on, but Mr. Barker's deconversion story is explained in Hebrews 6: apostasy. It is sad, but predictable, give what the Bible says about false believers who eventually show their true colors by not abiding in the truth.

Lars Larson said...

Wish I could have heard you speak, Mr. Barker.

Mr. Groothius, not so much.

He has found a way to artificially intellectualize Christianity through his "Apologetics" and his in-house degrees to the point where it is just too laughable to read past the first sentence anymore.

I do appreciate the honesty of this blog, however. Mrs. Aurora, you have quite honestly expressed that, "I find it a lot easier for me to accept truths when they are expressed in a form I can understand." I find that very refreshing for a believer to be so honest. Life is tough sometimes.

The honest answer to all of this, and I think Mr. Barker you would agree, is that no matter how "appealing" or "coherent" Christianity may seem, it does not make it true. And I would say to Mr. Groothius, who by simply calling people "adversarial" bans them from commentary on his "blog", it doesn't matter how much you "know" about something, as that doesn't make it true either. Just as I may well learn to speak fluent Klingon does not make the planet Klingon appear in the heavens. And no matter how wonderful the "community" of Christians is for you, Mrs. Aurora, it does not make the teachings true.

But that is OK. You feel good. You do good with those feelings. And I applaud you for it.

Mr. Barker, for as much as we agree, might be a very unpleasant person, I have no idea. Mr. Groothius might think that I am an unpleasant person because I hold intellectualism to a very high standard indeed and lambaste his reasoning and always will given the chance. Put up or shut up...but pleasantness of personality has no bearing whatsoever on whether a belief system espoused by anyone is true or not.

As far as I can tell the Earth is billions of years old, our species is nothing special in the Big Picture and Jesus the man was evidentially non-existent. Past that I am OK with being truly curious about the natural world, not knowing all the answers for sure and doing my best to make things better for anyone I meet for as long as I live.

Lars Larson
Father, Trailrunner, Bike Commuter, Veteran Triathlete

Lars Larson said...

Sorry, Debbie. I just realized you had a last name. I was generically referring to you as Mrs. Aurora there for a bit of fun. So, with that knowledge, Mrs. Bashore, I thank you for allowing me to post.

Deborah Downs said...

That's ok, Lars. I just added it after realizing I never had it displayed. I let everyone post. I only moderate so I can screen nasty language. My mom reads my blog. ;)

Matt said...

The only thing that I really disagree with is the recommendation of Dawkins. He may be a brilliant biologist but his arguments against theism simply don't cut it. See Plantinga's "The Dawkins Confusion."

Deborah Downs said...

@ Matt. Thank you for the reference. For what it is worth I will explain in my next blog why I value Dawkins' (and Hawking's while I am at it) scientific contributions despite disregard for intelligent design.

If anyone else is interested in reading Plantinga's response to Dawkins' God delusion here is a post I found on the content.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/19850.htm

John Stockwell said...

I would like to have seen Mr. Barker's
presentation.

As to Dr. Groothuis' comments, one
by one, here are my reactions.

1. Such arguments are only convincing
to people who already believe.
(ID is not convincing to the majority
of scientists on scientific
grounds.)

2. Fortunately for all of us, the
Judeo-Christian tradition is not
coherent, or we would be living in
a collection of theocratic police
states as was the case in Europe in
the Middle Ages.

3. I would invite interested people to
read _A Distant Mirror_ by Barbara
Tuchman to see what "Christian" 14th
century Europe was like. The point
is that the term "Christian
worldview" means something quite
different today.

Our modern notions of freedom of
religion and equality under the law
are definitely not part of
these past "Christian worldviews".

Groothuis is merely attempting to
"Hitler" people who don't agree with
him.

4. The term "natural" at best today
means "something that can some
day be studied scientifically."
At best, the term
"supernatural" means "anectdotal
or spurrious".

5. It seems reasonable to believe that
there was one or more historical
figures who were the inspiration for
Jesus of the New Testament. However,
there is little objective evidence
for anything more about that
individual.

6. Barker is right. The New Testament
passages do suggest strongly that
the "second coming" was supposed
to have happened in the 1st century.
Or, it is an example of the many,
many glossed over contradictions that
are buried in Biblical literism.

David Strunk said...

Hmmm......

Debbie gave rational reasons for her fundamental disagreements with Barker, and at least Barker had the decency to deal with each successive claim, even if disagreement between the two still exists.

Groothuis then lists several reasons and appeals to the arguments of others as support for the claims of Christianity. These are arguments/claims that certainly seemed to be unsatisfactorily dealt with by Barker and many new atheists.

Then, Larson writes some commentary laden with logical fallacies: straw man, ad hominem, red herring. Oh the logical fallacies! Mr. Larson, if you extol intelligence, reason, and truth, please don't be so ignorant on basic rules of logic. You dealt with none of Groothuis' claims as arguments. Aristotle would be ashamed of you.

Lars Larson said...

Hmmm, is right. I presented no real arguments at all, so therefore, they cannot be illogical or full of fallacy. And I smell an alias being used here anyway. Mr. Groothius, or a dittohead of the same, please reveal yourself. You can pull out all the NAMES for argumentative mistakes, Mr. High School debate coach, or Denver Seminary "prof" in disguise, but none of them match up here.

Be that as it may, Mr. Groothius is content to use the Bible as the basis for ALL his arguments. An intellectual argument simply CANNOT use the Bible as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity. Aristotle, if you would like to cite such an ancient source, would throw it out. Groothius calls the Bible "Truth" from the very get go.

Foul!

You also can't base your belief in something by first believing it. This is what Christians do with even knowing it. They say, "I believe it without thinking about it so let's start with that." Respectfully I will point out, like Debbie just said above..."despite disregard for intelligent design", you can't START with the assumption of Intelligent Design as she does.

There needs to be a common benchmark for the beginning of the discussion that everyone agrees on. Groothius gets all frustrated that other Christians don't want to be intellectual about their belief, but then he throws up his hands when he can't lick his fingers and thumb through the "texts" to prove any of his "points".

Lars Larson
Rationalist

Anonymous said...

If Doug was "Right" then all the religions of the world would be lining up at his door to agree and adopt his bible and creed.

They clearly do not. They all claim inerrancy and clearly cannot.

Doug has no proof whatsoever of his god.

The only reason he keeps up the charade is because that's the only job he knows and would lose his salary if he proposed anything else.

He's living off the gullible rather than creating a beneficial work product.

Matt said...

@Lars

You said, "An intellectual argument simply CANNOT use the Bible as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity."

So if that is true then it should be generalizable: "An intellectual argument simply CANNOT use X as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity."

Does anything hold up to this standard? I think it might be a bit to strong. Unless by "anything" and "everyone" you don't mean anything and everyone.

Lars Larson said...

@Matt

Let me give you an example from less than 100 years ago. When Alfred Wegener proposed the idea of Plate Tectonics in the early 20th century he was pretty much laughed out of the room. 25 years later it was commonly accepted. Why was he laughed out of the room? Because he didn't have proof, that's why. There was no benchmark for a common starting point for the debate.

Later, when evidence began to crop up, the debate and research became more serious and he was vindicated. That does not mean that those who were skeptical needed to be ashamed of themselves. They were only doing a scientist's job...be skeptical of new ideas until there is sufficient evidence for debate.

Strikingly, there are still plenty of folks, mostly young earth creationists, that will have nothing to do with Wegener's "theory" because it bumps right up against the hard edges of the biblical cement that has hardened around your typical Christian Apologist's ankles.

So, Matt, you can't go around using the Bible as a basis for argument, for instance with me, because I will laugh you out of the room when you open to a particular scripture to "prove" a point about genetics, the creation of my children, germ theory, geology, or astronomy. You simple HAVE to leave that book at home. But there are LOTS of places to begin a discussion without it. But two of them AREN'T "It feels so good that it must be true" and "I can't imagine how there could NOT be a God?" Ignoring perfectly good scientific evidence isn't a real good place to start either.

Anonymous said...

I have listened to several of Dan's debates (Douglas Wilson; Kyle Butt; James White). Dan Barker repeatedly appeals to the listeners' emotions in various ways (poetry; outrage), the same thing he did when he was "Christian". Appeals to emotions can't sustain an worldview and they don't win an argument ultimately.

Why not arrange a debate between Dr. Groothuis and Dan Barker?

@Lars

Your posts are intended to show us how "rational" you are. You are just making yourself look more foolish -- and I mean to say that in the nicest way possible. How? You are accusing Dr. Groothuis of posting under an alias (when a quick click on the name would reveal otherwise) and you are engaged in uncalled for personal attacks (his educational credentials). Is that rational?

I would politely suggest to you that you follow the Doug's method of catering to those who like to engage ideas in an intellectual fashion: publish a book, if you haven't.

Dr. Groothuis has published several books (about 10, I think), one of which I have (Jesus In An Age of Controversy; very detailed study of alternative views of Jesus). You could condense all your arguments, clarify all your objections, send it to an editor, and then let the world hear what you object to. But be aware that the editor might ask you to delete any and all vitrol, an aspect of publishing which may or may not leave a few empty pages. However, in book form, the world could see your arguments, your rationality, and follow your train of logic. I suspect that somewhere in there we may find some basic assumptions (like God doesn't exist; nature is all there is; the supernatural doesn't exist) upon which you build the rest of your argument.

Joshua

(NOTE: I don't have a Google account or OpenID account; otherwise my name, Joshua, would appear above.)

Matt said...

@ Lars,

Ah, progress! I'm trying to get you to nail down what exactly is needed for your definition of an "intellectual argument." Do you have some source or background reading you could direct me toward? Normally an argument is simply a set of propositions that lead to the conclusion. Usually arguments are described as valid/invalid, sound/unsound, inductive/deductive but never "intellectual." So help me understand.

You originally said that in order for an argument to be an intellectual argument, we need everyone to agree with its logic, its relevance or its veracity. But now you mention evidence. So you didn't actually mean ""An intellectual argument simply CANNOT use X as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity."

Did you actually mean this 'An intellectual argument simply CANNOT use X as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity and there is sufficient evidence'?

So what if we turn this criteria on itself? 'No one can use an intellectual argument as a basis for ANYTHING unless everyone agrees with its logic, its relevance or its veracity and there is sufficient evidence.

1. I don't agree with the logic of the so-called "intellectual argument" therefore not everyone agrees with its logic.

2. I don't agree with the relevance of "intellectual argument" therefore not everyone agrees with its relevance.

3. I've never seen any evidence for an "intellectual argument"

Conclusion. No one can use an "intellectual argument" as a basis for anything.

Now do you see the problem I had with what you said? By using words like 'anything' and 'everyone' you're definition is much to strong.

Lars Larson said...

@Matt...no...I don't.

@Joshua. @Joshua.

I am so glad you have made the publishing of 10 books a prerequisite to trying to make a point on a blog without sounding "foolish". I can't WAIT to tell all my Christian friends who honestly believe that humans walked the Earth with the dinosaurs and insist on SPEAKING about it that they finally have to SHUT UP. Although publishing a book or two might actually make responding to comments on blogs defending irrational beliefs a bit easier. I could simply copy and paste the answers from those books like Groothius does instead of firing something off out of my own head. Good idea. I will get right on it. Then again it wouldn't do any good as a defense against being called "foolish". You would call Dawkins, Hitchens, Adams or Dennett "foolish" just as quickly as you call me "foolish" because they make the same basic assumptions I do.

And, no, I have not read any of Doug Groothius's books. I tried reading some of his "poetry" once and that was enough for me.

As for my "accusations". I will give you the basis for that. Groothius published one of my comments to his blog along with a challenge to his readers to find the obvious faults in my arguments and then immediately thought better of it and took it down. His challenge to his readers in that post and his email TO ME used the very SAME words as Mr. Strunk's post did. Exactly the the same words. But you are right, I shouldn't have accused anyone. I take it back.

But, in honor of Blasphemy Day I will point out one final thing. Mr. Barker apparently spoke about his disbelief in Christianity. Apparently Groothius and his minions disagreed with many of his arguments. If Mr. Barker had used his time to state his disbelief in Thor or Zeus or the benefits of Yoga, there would have been little opposition. So, these believers apparently understand the feeling of disbelief very well. Utter the words, "Jesus was a crock", however, and people shudder and wince. Start from an assumption of disbelief in the unproven Judeo-Christian God or even doubt the actual occurance of The Flood and believing folks shelter their children. All I can say is that I am happy to live in an age where the burden of proof is on the believer of miracles and the power of prayer and not upon the skeptic. I have no work to do. You do. The days are long gone when I would be roped to a stake for making the assumption of "no God". The days are here when you have to, and I repeat, put up or shut up.

Deborah Downs said...

Good grief, gentlemen. I step out for a run and you blow up the blog. It is obvious that the venue of a Colorado housewife's blog is not going to solve this age old debate. I would however love to attend one of Mr. Barker's debates in the future. Perhaps he and Dr. Groothuis would oblige us with just such an event.

I only have two comments in addition.

(1) To the matter of "in house" degrees, I am not quite sure how one avoids not having in house degrees once they have chosen a particular profession. All degrees from the graduate level and up are very specific and could be categorized as "in house" no matter what field you are in.

(2) To the matter of Lars last comment, there were numerous assumptions in there as to what Theists do and do not believe. Many of those (in respect to my beliefs at least) were false. I value science highly and I believe the past has taught us repeatedly NOT to laugh in its face but to carefully evaluate new information.

I don't mind if you keep up the conversation, just be cautious to distinguish between what is intellectual and what is emotional.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

I see that people I banned on my blog for rudeness--not for being adversarial; I post plenty of things I disagree with--have picked up on this blog. Sorry Deborah. They are up to the same tricks: name-calling, amazement at Christians stupidity, etc. What they lack are sound arguments: true premises leading to a conclusion through a valid form of reasoning.

Calling me "laughable" is no argument; it is mere invective.

At least Lars could spell my name correctly: Groothuis!

I don't have time to deal with Mr. Stockwell at this point. I might come back to do so.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

Anonymous is really good at name-calling and accusation without argument. That is too bad and sad, really.

I will have about 150 pages of argumentation for the existence of God in my next book. Or just read William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, on this. One could go on.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

I cannot wait: Here are responses to two of Mr. Stockwell's comments:

As to Dr. Groothuis' comments, one
by one, here are my reactions.

1. Such arguments are only convincing
to people who already believe.
(ID is not convincing to the majority
of scientists on scientific
grounds.)

Response: How can anyone know that? Many claim to have been convinced by arguments for Christian theism, having moved from skepticism or atheism or from another worldview. Consider minor figures such as St. Augustine or CS Lewis.

Counting noses does not determine truth. The issue is arguments, not ideological agreement. The number of Darwin questioners and ID advocates is growing also. See www.discovery.org on this.


2. Fortunately for all of us, the
Judeo-Christian tradition is not
coherent, or we would be living in
a collection of theocratic police
states as was the case in Europe in
the Middle Ages.

Response:

A. This begs the question as to the philosophical coherence of Christian theism. It assumes it is not, then rejoices. No argument there.

B. The medieval situation was only one application of a Christian understanding of reality, and an incorrect one in some ways. Nevertheless, the medieval period sowed the seeds for science and democracy. See Rodney Stark, The Triumph of Reason (that may not be the exact title).

Christians have learned things through the ages (since they emphasize repentance), and no one is advocating a theocracy now. This is just a straw man fallacy. Christianity, in fact, was pivotal to most of the founders of the US, which is not exactly a theocracy. See the DVD, "Wall of Separation" and Francis Schaeffer, "A Christian Manifesto," or the prestigious historian Martin Marty, "Nature's Nation," among many sources.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

Correction: "Nature's Nation" is by Perry Miller (not Martin Marty), equally an esteemed historian.

Sarah said...

I meandered over to check out what I had heard was an interesting discussion. Debbie - thanks for a well-written and thoughtful post, as well as a generous attitude revealed in the comments. I especially appreciate Kim's story. I moved from atheism into (horrors!) evangelical Christianity, not because of prior commitments, but much against my will. I found to my dismay that Christianity wasn't nearly as easy a target as I had hoped, and its successful intellectual/evidential challenge to my atheistic presuppositions opened the door to serious consideration of a very unwelcome (at the time) God. I fully admit that my youthful atheism wasn't as informed or sophisticated as that of others, but ironically my Christian faith compels me to make sure I examine and fairly consider the claims of others in a way that my atheistic faith never did. From some of the comments, seems that it wasn't just my atheism that permitted me to be both dismissive and disrespectful toward Christians - it's common enough that thoughtful, respectful comments by an atheist can be really refreshing.

Sarah said...

beware false syllogisms:
1. Reason and fact are reliable ways of determining truth
2. Atheism appeals to reason and fact
3. Therefore, atheism is true

further -
1. Atheism is rational
2. I am an atheist
3. Therefore, I am rational
and
4. Non-atheists are irrational (thus there is no need to actually seriously evalute their claims, or even make sure I understand them to begin with)

John Stockwell said...

Just a little rebuttal of Dr. Groothuis' replies.

(I would warn
Debbie that according to a recent
post on Dr. Groothuis' blog I
am apparently "truculent and
bellicose".)

1. We, of course, know that the scientific community does not embrace the activities of the so-called intelligent design theorists as being useful, or even as science. It would be front-page news if
they did.

As to religious apologetics, it is interesting that apologeticists of all religions (not just Christian sects) all seem to come up with arguments that exactly fit their own preconceived notions of religion. (The ones that don't, of course, change religions and become "apostates".)

2. Our notions of religious freedom of religion, and the notions of separation of church and state do not come from Christianity, but rather from the desires of the founders of our nation to create a place where religions of all varieties (which were originally just Christian sects) could be practiced. The result is that the secular is recognized as the common meeting ground of people of all philosphies.

As to "coherency of Christian theism". How many Christian sects are there?
There is a "coherent Christin theism" for each one that apparently differs
sufficiently from the others that they don't all fly the same banner.

Deborah Downs said...

Thank you John for your "truculent and bellicose" response.

On a somewhat unrelated theme, could you tell me how your research and writing in mathematics impacts your worldview. Do you find that a Theist worldview demeans your efforts and study? I'm reading through some of your work and it is a fascinating (albeit a bit over my head) discipline. One of the reasons I admire Dawkins is because his beliefs are informed by his study in biology. How does your study inform you?

John Stockwell said...

Hi Debbie,

Those are good questions.

(I am actually a geophysicist, rather than a pure mathematician.)

To be effective, any mathematician
(pure or applied) or physical scientist generally does not view their discipline as a worldview philosophy, but rather as an investigative program.

We don't know all of the answers and any "big picture" view of the world
is going to be a list of what we are pretty sure of, what we think we know, and what we wish we understood.

The only "theististic worldviews" that can interfere with science are those that necessarily impose restrictions on the structure of the universe that fly in the face of scientific results or methodology.

Examples would be young-earth global flood creationism. The intelligent design movement is another. Basically anything that takes a religious apologetic of the form of a "sermon from science" and tries to turn it around to try to make it a "science from sermons".

I balk at Phil Johnson-esque mischaracterizations of science or society being in the grips of some philosophy of "naturalism", or the
claim that there is a philosphy of "darwinism" for this reason.

Every scientists knows that our knowledge is incomplete, and that what we call "natural" varies from generation to generation, and that the investigative program of science is not finished. To be a metaphysical "naturalist" you would have to believe that science is complete or "finished"
which, of course every scientist knows is not the case.

As to the question of "a theistic worldview being demeaning to scientific efforts", I would have
to say that only people demean other people. If a person's apologetic style is to promote religion by promoting a misrepresentation of scientific theories, then I think that would be demeaning and disparaging to scientists and to the public, in general.

As to science informing my worldview, I would have to say I cannot believe that a book, any book, should be treated as being inerrant. Nor do I believe that logical arguments that deal with physical phenomena or the nature of reality, no matter how well executed and "air tight" are of value unless they are tested against observation and experiment.

Deborah Downs said...

Are you defining an order that science (observation and experiment) should govern our philosophy? And then based on the result of science married to philosophy we may form sound religion?

If I observe this order then I must conclude that our understanding of Scripture is also incomplete if I must wait for observation and experiment to verify it. I think this is sound, since in the past when we have attempted to suppress scientific advances we have done it because the science did not correlate with our preconceived notions of Scripture. But once the science is proved to be true we realize that it never really contradicted a concept of God in the first place.

So is it the concept of God in general that you take issue with? Or is it the stubbornness of His followers that is the issue? Because we can definitely be that, especially when we think we have it all figured out.

Personally I do not want to serve a God that I can figure out so easily. I enjoy the pursuit of Him and all the puzzles it entails.

Perhaps you would indulge me with some insights from your field... just for fun. Scripture refers to Jesus (provided he existed) as a rock of salvation. Based on the properties of rocks (yes I know there are many, but in general) what would a verse like this mean? When I think of a rock I think of something that just sits there and doesn't do anything. But if that were true, you wouldn't have such an extensive research field. So supposing this analogy is accurate what would this tell me about him that I don't already know/assume?

John Stockwell said...

Hi Debbie,

Science informs our common philosophy. For example 300 years ago it would be possible for a person to be accused of, and tried in a court of law, for causing damage to another by the use of black magic. While you can certainly find elements of belief in magic in our society, this notion is no longer part of our system of knowledge. That is a result of the empirical notions of science filtering into our common way of thinking.

Philosophy as a discipline is not bound by empiricism and is not necessarily investigative, so I would not agree that the empiricism of science can *rule* all of philosophy. Nor do many of the issues that philosophy attempts to address fall in the purview of empirical science. I would argue that as a matter of practicality that if a philosophical issue does happen to overlap with matters that can be addressed by science, then scientific results must inform or even trump philosophical argumentation.

Personally, I see the concept of God as being meaningless. It is an idea that cannot be tested, and
an idea that is not necessary to believe in order to live normally and well. I spent the first half of my
life trying to make the notion work, and the second
half with the idea abandoned. I don't see a difference. I also don't see better behavior among believers when compared to non-believers. I see
no reason to believe that anybody needs to be "saved", or that there is life after death, or any of that.

Religious preference is a complex and personal issue. I do not think that we understand why some people are religious and others are not, which is why the notion of religious freedom in western society is to be treasured.

Regarding your "rock" question, it seems reasonable to me that you should try to understand this phrase in context of the times in which it was written.

Ancient people had practical knowledge of the properties of building materials
and of building sites. They knew from experience that attaching a building to bedrock would provide a more stable anchorage of a structure, preventing damage due to soil subsidence, and even to ground motion from earthquakes.

Furthermore, if you were building a temple, you might choose a high point on a rock outcropping as a "sacred site", Indeed, such sites likely were already sacred for centuries prior to the building of temple.
Many ancient religious had the notion of a sacred mountain where the gods lived, that sort of thing. So that metaphor likely would have been more powerful in ancient times than it is today.

"

Deborah Downs said...

Well, I was hoping for something a bit more profound than that. I am one of those odd Christians who believes that Scripture is eternal and that as our knowledge increases our understanding increases.

I was thinking more along the lines of, let's say, density - since Jesus was the "fullness of the Deity in bodily form" that would make him similar to perhaps volcanic rock.

Does he have magnetic properties?

What about beta particles or the penetrating power of gamma rays?

Can wave velocity or its linear correlation with porosity provide insights?

If the premise that the Word of God is eternal is true, then the analogy of Jesus as a rock must also be eternally true. So the more I discover of rock and its properties the more I should discover about this man who claimed to be God.

For example: volcanic rock is formed from exposure to fire/water/air (all analogous in Scripture for the Holy Spirit), so what I may assume from this is that the more exposure and formation of Jesus in his conduit (me) by the Holy Spirit, the greater his potency and density... something like that.

Or do I set my standard too high?

John Stockwell said...

I believe that it is appropriate to view "Jesus is a rock" as a metaphor, and not an analogy. As a metaphor the phrase has the connotation of stability and reliability, as well as possibly invoking the notion of the sacred.

But, I do think that you might get my point of thinking
that using sermons as science falls short.

Anonymous said...

It seems to me, when reading these types discussions, that athiests tend to lean towards science to express their world view. It implies, I believe, to the reader that all scientists feel as the athesist do. If however, there are Christians amongst scientists, wouldn't that suggest that two people can look at the same evidence and come up with different conclusions? It happens in courts all the time, doesnt it? Did these scientists who happen to be christians, somehow get a cheaper degree than the athiests?

jeanie

John Stockwell said...

to jeanie,

There certainly are scientists of all religious beliefs, who work effectively in their respective fields. You can't tell by reading a scientific paper what religious beliefs the author holds, because these beliefs have no bearing on how people do science.

Anonymous said...

Thank you John for responding. Im glad to know there are scientists of varying beliefs. Often, I believe, it is assumed that if you believe in science, that you cant believe in God also. Sorry if Ive hijacked the thread. :)